The Golden Age!

[Dick Glasgow]

How many of you own a Concertina that was made during the Golden Age of Concertina making?
.... i.e. the 1920s!

The theory is that the technology got more and more refined as time went by so concertinas improved steadily until you get into the 1930's when you had a world depression closely followed by mass availability of gramophones, radios etc etc and 'down-to-a-price' took over increasingly from 'up-to-a-quality'.

So we're told it's nice to see a 1920's date on a box.
Later ones, I gather, can be very good or a bit indifferent, depending on what they were made for.

My Wheatstones were made in 1919 & 1927 so I'm quite happy to go along with this theory! ;D

Cheers
Dick

[guran]

Dick,
I am a bit ambivalent concerning these sayings about what is the "best" period of Wheatstone production. I agree that I have heard from many experienced players that the 1920s may have been the safest period for general qaulity but from my own experience it seems more complex than that. Now - I have not had, or had contact with, as many from before 1925 as after that but during the years I have had close contact with more than 200 and a quite few chances to compare them. One repeated difficulty is that the older the instrument is the more commonly has there been some job done on the reedworkand since that is the most important bit of the instrument it gets tricky firslty because of that, particularly if the basic pitch has been changed - from a435,439 or 452,5 to a440.
For tonal character in my view Victorian period instruments often are superior to later ones, and pre WW1 to later ones, and 1920s to later ones BUT one has to be very careful not to let that generalisation count for ANY individual instrument which very well may be ruined of course by maltreatment and then any later product may be enormously much better still ! Often people reject the real late Wheatstones, from after WW2, but that seens unjustified too. Not knowing what the causes are one can only speculate but since even lates individual instruments sometimes turn out to be absolutely splendid at least for tone and reed standard my guess is that individual reed makers have transferred their skill to the result. When I have come across absolutely "mint" ( reedwork not been touched ever!) instruments from say 1930 and later many of these have been quite as good as the "golden age" ones even when these have been obviously in mint condition too. Strange? I don't know, one thing is clear though - these instruments all - inspite of seemingly being alike like twins and even produced in the same "batch" may be different all the same. During the years I have had six such pairs of absolute twin like instruments ( less than 20 serial numbers apart) and been able to change all parts in them for various experiments and still there may remain a few 'unexplainable' differences in their tone !
Goran

[Dick Glasgow]

Mar 8, 2009 21:18:25 GMT guran said:

I have had close contact with more than 200

Wow! Lucky you Goran. That's bound to give you some idea about quality from different ages of instrument.

Personally, I have only handled about 10!

One repeated difficulty is that the older the instrument is the more commonly has there been some job done on the reedworkand since that is the most important bit of the instrument it gets tricky firslty because of that, particularly if the basic pitch has been changed - from a435,439 or 452,5 to a440.

Do we know the various dates, when the basic pitches were changed?

For tonal character in my view Victorian period instruments often are superior to later ones, and pre WW1 to later ones, and 1920s to later ones

So as a general rule of thumb, you could perhaps say that, as long as the Reeds haven't been damaged, it is a case of the older the Fiddle, the Sweeter the tune, of course in this case we're talking about Concertinas.

During the years I have had six such pairs of absolute twin like instruments ( less than 20 serial numbers apart) and been able to change all parts in them for various experiments and still there may remain a few 'unexplainable' differences in their tone!

Surely though Goran, although the numbers are close, the fact is the various parts may well have been constructed by different craftsmen on the 'production line' which would or at least could lead to slight differences?

Cheers
Dick

[guran]

Dick,
The "luck" with much experience of this kind may be compensated by the unfortunate and futile search for the 'perfect' instrument - which of course does not exist...

Historically the pitch issue is a mess but if you wish to spend som time on it try for a start:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_%28music%29
www.spiritsound.com/pitch.html
What is of major interest for 'us' is that 19th century instruments usually were either a435 ( adopted in Paris 1859) or a452,5 and that the later stayed on for a longer period with band instruments, particularly Salvation Army ones (since military brass bands used that pitch longer than other ensambles) and it was much abandoned in 1929 and it seems as if concertinas dominantly became tuned to 439 from 1929 up to 1939 when 440 was agreed upon and confirmed again by ISO 1955.
It is a mess also since the re-pitching ha occurrred so irregularly.There should have been a compulsory log-book with every instrument ! In my opinion change of pitch should have been prohibited...

Concerning tone it is much a matter of taste of course but one thing is obvious - the tone has become stronger and rougher with time. Since free-reeds are so rough by themselves (due to the amount of irregular overtones) I think all that can be done to make the done mellower is for the best and the mid 19th century obviously preferred that too. Band playing, playing outdoors, Morris idiom etc likely increased the demand for a strong, but less delicate and attractive tone.

Oh Yes, I do guess that the individual craftsmen really have puit their 'sign' on the instruments and that this may be the main reason for the differences. The tuning must have been a typical manufacture 'outsourced' to homework by individual tuners since you can not have two of them in the same room and hardly any listener in the same room either and both the technical skill and the individual method may have resulted in some differences. The evenness is very important for the character of an instrument - all notes having the same kind of timbre - no matter which - and this is best preserved if the original status is not altered. I think it is a pity that people have been so anxious to get concertinas repitched to "concert pitch" (a440) You can often adapt other instruments to the squeezebox, violin, banjo, guitar, etc and if the concertina is dominantly used in such ensambles or solo why on Earth change its pitch?? Now almost all of the old ones are changed allready so the damage is done...and if being say 439 instead of 440 I would never do it if it were in fine condition and if in 435 I would not either but get another instrument if the demand for 440 is without compromises, some top reeds do not tolerate being raised either and can be damaged by the procedure. And if in 452,5 and taken down the response will be reduced....

Goran

[yankeeclipper]

"I think it is a pity that people have been so anxious to get concertinas repitched to "concert pitch" (a440) You can often adapt other instruments to the squeezebox, violin, banjo, guitar, etc and if the concertina is dominantly used in such ensambles or solo why on Earth change its pitch?? "

If you like to play a variety of music along with diverse instruments, re-tuning an 'old pitch' concertina to "concert pitch" is almost essential. I often play in sessions with piano, clarinet, oboe, concertina, harmonica, pennywhistle, clarseach. Even if they could, why should I expect everyone else to re-tune to MY instrument?

When I got my 'old pitch' 1915 Wheatstone EC in 1982, it was virtually unplayable with my friends' fixed pitch instruments (I think it was A452). After a few months of sitting out too many tunes, I had it re-tuned to A440. A Yorkshire craftsman named Mick did a superb job, the concertina sound is sweet and true, and I've lost nothing in the process except the inconvenience. Now I play ragtime, klezmer, classical, etc., as well as folky stuff with other instrumentalists, and having an A440 instrument makes it easier for all concerned.

I'm sure there might be cases where re-tuning turned out badly. And every concertina is unique in some way, so we should all be cautious about generalizations. I can only speak from one very good experience of re-tuning.

[guran]

yankeeclipper,

I may sound a bit dogmatic but I stick to my position in principle but I also do understrand of course your points of view. I am not unfamiliar with the situation since I have played in such mixed ensambles myself and being an ex fiddler too. It IS truly tricky with piano, harmonica or other squeezeboxes but i is NOT much trouble in real with clarinet,oboe (and many other wind instruments but whistles of course are worse). String instruments only minor trouble since you have to tune more or less for each session anyway but of course if you change company very often it may be rather annoying to ask people to tune to your squeezebox all the time since it takes a little more than fine adjustment of one or two strings.If you play in a more regular group hopefully less annoyment....
You may have been very fortunate getting your own concertina to satisfaction after repitching but hard to judge from one example. I have experience from about 50 repitched instruments and I definitely would say that the greater part ( particularly among the initially fine ones) have lost by the procedure. Several jobs have been carried out by really "experienced" tuners but still have been failures in my view. Some instruments even to be regarded as "ruined" which must be seen as a real catastrophe.
Due to that my conclusion is that IF you need a concertina in concert pitch it had been better to pick one originally tuned that way and we ( "The concertina community") would all have gained from still having access to fine instruments in ther original pitch and mostly more accurate and skilled tuning and thus a better tone.
Goran

[yankeeclipper]

Mar 18, 2009 16:37:59 GMT guran said:

IF you need a concertina in concert pitch it had been better to pick one originally tuned that way

Well, yes, if the opportunity presents itself, or if you have the money and time to shop around. For me, living at the time in an isolated village in the NW Highland gaeltacht, there was no such luxury.

My Wheatstone was the only EC I could find at the time, and at £100 was a bargain not to be passed! Besides (being a rank newbie), I didn't even know there was such a thing as "old pitch" and only discovered it after the fact, as other players winced at the combined sound!

Had I been stuck with an 'old pitch' EC that clashed badly with my neighbors' instruments, or had to wait until an ideal EC came along, I might have had to resort to playing a bodhran. Re-tuning was far the better option - sometimes purity must give way to pragmatism.

[guran]

yankeeclipper,

Like I said, I certainly see your point and sýmpathize with your position particularly in the light of having got your instrument comparably cheap.

Talking money also brings the matter in some particular light. Not knowing what you paid for the repitching and not knowing exactly what pro repairers in general charge for the job today I make some rough guesses:
For my own part I judge a ( fairly good...) repitching job for an average english taking 15 hours (at least) - meaning 3 rounds of adjustments fo the complete reedworks, each round demanding about 5 hours work. On top of that comes a usually necessary fine tuning after some period of active playing ( since completely repitched reeds seldom function safely until having some gymnastics) and this mean at least 5 hours more.Summing up 15+5 hours work - but I would rather see it as at least 4-5 whole days of work since it is really strenous and tiresome and we end up in the range of say £400-500.

May I guess that this is more than you paid? Still what I describe may remain a "fairly good job"( absolute perfection can take for ever and you are not satisfied all the same...) and I frankly doubt that many concertina players are prepared to pay for that and adding £500 may not equal what others are prepared to add second hand on top of common market value.

Consequently a reasonable conclusion is that even a skilled tuner may have to compromise with the quality to adjust to "market value" of the undertaking and this is what I guess is one explanation that the tuning jobs today may not match the ones done 100 years ago. Another one is equally simple. If my guess is correct the tuners in old days did the tuning job specifically for a living and likely for a long time ( a whole working life?) . It is not likely that any one of todays makers and repairers ( doing all sorts of repair) have had a chance to acquire the same practical and stable competence in tuning and although not knowing I definitely guess that in old days there was a grading ( selection of perfect reeds for top of the line models and second rate selection ones for cheaper models) and even discard of reeds - something one can't afford today. Alltogether I expect a higher average standard of reed works in older instruments ( if kept in original shape and pitch !) and this may be manifested in the common expericence Ptarmigan referred to initiating this thread - that top of the line concertinas from the 1920s or at least pre WW1 ARE perceived as tonally better than later products.

( Concerning money - You meet the same dilemma with old pianos. Reconditioning is a matter of £1000 and this is more than the market pays for the instrument.)
Goran

[Dick Glasgow]

On the re-tuning Goran, your figures are pretty accurate.

I had a little Sally Ann 26 key Lachenal re-tuned recently, from Ab/Eb to G/D, & it set me back £400. I had each reed weighted, so that it'd be a simple job later, for anyone who might wish to take it back to it's original tuning.

I have to say, in Ab/Eb it was virtually of no use at all to me, but as G/D I now take it out weekly to our ballad session & it sounds great with Sea Shantys & is easy to accompany, when I play a few tunes.

I am never going to playing along with Brass instruments & quite frankly it is one of those cheaper Lachenals, so isn't loud enough to be heard with them anyway.

I think it's better to have it played regularly, than just gathering dust on a shelf.


Here it is, before it was restored!

Cheers
Dick

[yankeeclipper]

Mar 19, 2009 8:39:12 GMT guran said:

I make some rough guesses...I judge...May I guess...I frankly doubt... I guess...If my guess is correct...It is not likely...although not knowing I definitely guess...I expect...

Right you are, Guran! Blanket statements about concertinas are best well hedged, for players have many different needs and circumstances, and encounter many different instruments.

[guran]

Ptarmigan Dick,
Very pleased hearing that you were wise enough having the job done by weighting ! Even a lower grade instrument if being complete may in the long run become a precious antiquity or at least an appreciated instrument with other duties than the present ones. I guess it was high pitch too (a 452,5) making it extra demanding or even hazardous bringing the pitch down by filing. In my view the 26 key anglos seem under-estimated since they offer what you mainly need from a 30 key anyway ,don’t you think?
PS Please give me the basics on adding photos to the replies, I hadn't noticed the option !
Goran

[Dick Glasgow]

Aye Goran, photos are easy to add.

Just add IMG inside these brackets [ ] before & /IMG after {again inside brackets} after your photo address.

Good Luck

Cheers
Dick

[guran]

[/quote]

Right you are, Guran! Blanket statements about concertinas are best well hedged, for players have many different needs and circumstances, and encounter many different instruments.[/quote]

yankeeclipper,

We may agree on that…but exactly this relativity also is one of my main arguments NOT to repitch concertinas!
It is not like tuning a piano, since it can’t be undone. In the beginning of our band activities we needed 10+ same pitch instruments and had two in CP. I had all the others repitched or replaced to form a440 uniformity.
In the retrospect this turned out absolutely stupid since it had been much easier to achieve a corresponding
lot in a435 and many of the instruments had remained in a better shape.

Concerning my guesses you can assist sorting out some of them yourself:
How much did you pay for the repitching of yours? How long time did the job take? How well was it done?
Have you checked what the job usually costs? Are most buyers of old concertinas prepared to pay £500 for tuning, maybe on top of bellows for £300 and reconditioning of mechanism for roughly the same? £1000+ in all ?

Concerning old time jobs.
Do you have any good arguments speaking against I disagreeumptions? Otherwise try to find someone who knows! - but it is a bit too late to ask survivors and as long as no reliable diary is found we may never know and I continue guessing. Still there is reason to believe that *something* is behind the common declarations and the opinion that the tonal qualities were better in these older instruments. Or is that just imagination? If not I continue regarding this as a very good argument against hazardous repitching unless some very good reason makes it absolutely unavoidable. An acceptable one of course is if the reedwork has been violated several times already during the instrument’s ‘life’ of 100+ years…
Goran

[yankeeclipper]

"Concerning my guesses you can assist sorting out some of them yourself: How much did you pay for the repitching of yours? How long time did the job take? How well was it done?"

Ah, you're asking about something that happened more than 25 years ago (now in my 70s, I can hardly recall what I did an hour ago )! But if memory serves, I paid about £350 in total for re-pitching, reconditioning AND a new set of sixfold bellows (the originals were fourfolds). The workmanship was excellent all around, and the Wheatstone's tuning, tone, action and bellows are still sound 25 years later.

I know the work was completed in less than two weeks, because my wife and I used the time to explore Yorkshire, Lancashire and the Borders before picking up the finished EC and returning to Wester Ross. At the time, Wheatstone ECs in playable condition were fetching £1000 and more, so for less than half that I acquired a lovely instrument that has given me a lot of joy for a quarter century - and one that is pitched to play with any instrument I encounter!

I empathize with your desire to keep the old instruments as 'original' as possible, Guran. But in most places I've played, A440 tuning dominates, and playing an A452 EC with A440 instruments is aurally painful. In mixed sessions, that often means some instruments will mutually exclude each other. Under these circumstances, I'd rather play a re-pitched concertina that's universally welcomed, than an 'original' that makes other players wince - or sit out.

As Dick says, "I think it's better to have it played regularly, than just gathering dust on a shelf."

[guran]

yankeeclipper,

As I said before I understand your personal situation quite well and from your description it seems likely that you had a good job done with your instrument but I've noticed so many saddening examples that have motivated my view on it. High pitch quality instruments often have a certain edge or brightness of their tone, probably partly psychological but still (like when tuning up a violin) and this may feel attractive to some and maybe not to others but all the same it may be lost from tuning down, a pity in some respect. Most important however it is that due to the conditions I referred to we may have to expect in general that the repitching job carried out today will end up in a reduced quality of reedwork and tone unless it is done with extreme ambition and skill and like it is with most kinds of craftmanship today economic conditions do not stimulate highest perfection either. One hazard is the probability that the average customer may not be able to judge if the job is well done or not and this hardly inspires extra efforts on old instruments. The makers today can be expected to try doing their very best job with their own products or maybe from devotion when restoring some unique rarity or maybe on particular demand. Compromises have to be expected and forgiven (within limits...)
Goran