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Post by Dick Glasgow on Jan 11, 2009 14:54:43 GMT
There have been quite a few discussions over on C.net recently on Bass, Bass Baritone, Baritone Treble & Baritone Concertinas.
I'm just wondering if any of those Big Beasties exist North of the border.
Do you yourself or do you know of anyone, who plays any of the larger Concertinas in Scotland?
OK I know size isn't important, but it'd be interesting to know, don't you think?
Cheers Dick
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Post by guran on Jan 19, 2009 16:56:21 GMT
One of the old time players I met 20 years ago in Scotland was David Haxton,living in Glasgow by then but he is dead since I guess about 15 years now.He was since a long time member of ICA too and a very competent player. He used a tenortreble and a very nice, I think it was a 40 key Aeola baritone starting on Eb2 instead of normally F2 or G2 for common baritones. I am curious to hear if anyone knew him and maybe even who might enjoy the instrument nowadays...
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Post by Dick Glasgow on Jan 19, 2009 17:34:57 GMT
Guran, many thanks for David Haxton's name. I must say, I took great delight in adding his name to our list of English Concertina players in Scotland who we should not forget. I do hope someone here remembers him too. He was clearly a man with excellent taste in Concertinas. I say that as a man who plays an Aeola TT myself & I have actually just heard, no more than 30 minutes ago from Colin Dipper, that my Aeola Baritone is now in the hands of the Post Office, so I should have it by tomorrow, lunchtime! ... YIPPEEEE Cheers Dick P.S. I'm afraid, mine is just a common one though, Guran.
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Post by guran on Feb 4, 2009 19:44:09 GMT
Dick, I read your posting to c.net on potential problems with bigger instruments.Since I can't reply on c.net I do it here instead.There will maybe be some continuation on an endless discussion on this matter and sadly enough people seemingly have great difficulty in getting things right even though it is not particularly complicated at all. I have written hundreds of pages on the matter, I have discussed it with many of the present makers and although it comes down to just a few elementary things to understand - as I mentioned last time at Mudcat as well - it is SO hard to overcome obstructive tradition but that is how it always is...
1) The concertina weight is hardly ever truly a great problem and should never need to be one 2) The greater effort playing a larger concertina is mainly depending on the larger end area making pumping demanding greater force 3) With the english the traditional 'handle' consisting of thumbstrap and finger rest is severely dysfunctional and it is so simple to set it all right by using a broader and steadier thumbstrap, a wrist support, , a broad (!) curved and steady wriststrap, and if standing a broad elastic shoulder strap ( or two) NOT a neckstrap ! - and stop using the silly finger rest ! That is all ! Everyone who is conservative enough or thinks too much of the looks rather than the music the instrument produces can of course struggle on with the inborn discomfort the pretty instrument offers. Questions are welcome as always... Goran
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Post by Dick Glasgow on Feb 5, 2009 7:15:10 GMT
Well Goran, when you are new to an instrument you tend to follow the example of those who have gone before, assuming they, from experience, know the correct & most effective way to do things. As with a lot of instruments, getting your posture right from the start, obviously makes life easier later on. So I'm experimenting a little, trying to find the way that suits me best. I think I had the straps far too tight, which was forcing my hands to twist themselves into a rather awkward position & that's how I ended up with thumb pains. I've lengthened them again, but I must be honest, I played last night without the wrist straps & found that most comfortable of all! However, it'll be very interesting to see if I get pains today as a result of that wee experiment! I can see how a wider wrist strap might be more comfortable & I might try that. As for the Pinkie rests, I don't always use them. I actually find it more comfortable to sometimes just let my Pinkies hang free. I know I must suffer growing pains, as you do getting used to playing most instruments I guess, I'm just keen not to do any serious or permanent damage by going about things the wrong way. Cheers Dick
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Post by guran on Feb 5, 2009 13:09:15 GMT
Dick, I quote some of your own reflections first since it primarily comes down to individual experience, of course ! 1) "when you are new to an instrument you tend to follow the example of those who have gone before" - A sensible strategy in many cases, but tradition and habits tend to withstand progression until the vast majority at last realizes that times hav changed, when things are "self-evident". Concertina playing has never been the subject of academic tuition, nor competitive public performance like the piano or violin. The accordion has, to some degree, and consequently playing methods (and instruments) have been reformed a lot more since 1830 or so... 2) "So I'm experimenting a little, trying to find the way that suits me best". - Always a good idea but there likely are a couple of postures and ways holding the "beast" that are expected to be better than others generally 3)" I think I had the straps far too tight, which was forcing my hands to twist themselves into a rather awkward position & that's how I ended up with thumb pains". - Possibly yes. An individual with fairly long hands is expected to have problems reaching the lower notes comfortably with all concertinas and with the english they need to have just the thumb end in the thumbstrap.If you rely on the finger rest the same happens. By leaving the finger rest and putting the thumb further into tghe thumbstrap the thumb takes more load passively,without as much muscular strain. The traditional wrist straps cause conflicts all by themselves as well. Like you found yourself, if set tight the movements get obstructed while stability may be fine - if set looser comfort may be better but they function only a little on pull and everything is loose on push.There is only one way to deal with this and that is filling up the gap between the end plate and the hand by using a support so that the wrist strap is comfortably steady both on pull and push. 4) "As for the Pinkie rests, I don't always use them. I actually find it more comfortable to sometimes just let my Pinkies hang free". - - Since you are always there don't ever be tempted to use them again ! What can be done when seated if not using the said "wrist support" is resting both lower end frames on the thigh (not the bellows!) and keep them tightly there by pressing downwards with the thumbs all through pulling and pushing the bellows by "fanning the bellows". This may add enough stability for fingering without using the finger rest and the stress on the thumbs "downwards" is less harmful than every lift/extension by the thumbs. You may have seen (or I have said) that I use an elastic strap to assist keeping the lower folds together in this procedure and the effect is most remarkable !
Generally speaking a larger instrument, like the baritone compared to a treble english, offers so many advantages ergonomically that the possible comfort from the treble lightness and handiness are more than compensated, you will see...:-) Goran
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Post by guran on Mar 22, 2009 9:27:34 GMT
Dick, I apologize for 'replying' to myself but I want to make a little modication of my somewhat dogmatic opinion that the finger plates should be rejected. There are two occasions when there is some excuse to use them. a) if insisting on playing like suggested in the 1844 patent papers: i.e keeping both 3rd AND 4th fingers on the finger plate and using only 1st and 2nd for button work b) if playing miniatures which mostly come without any 'handle' at all. Providing these with a thumb strap AND a finger rest makes them very much more playable than when using the common terribly crampful grip around the end frames. You can never use the 4th finger for buttons anyway and holding a miniature is so easy that the involved muscles are expected to cope with it.Check for instance below: Goran www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw6kYWM1c_0&feature=channel_page
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